Head Inside Mental Health
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Head Inside Mental Health
Navigating the Interpersonal Dynamics of Attachment with Dr. Jack Hinman
Hello folks, welcome back to Mental Health Matters. On WPBM 1037, the voice of Asheville Independent commercial-free radio, I'm Todd Weatherly, your host therapeutic consultant. Behavioral health expert. With me today is Dr Jack Hinman. Jack is the founding executive director of Engage Transitions, a therapeutic environment there in Cedar City, utah. Engage's engages purposes to provide therapeutic support for young adults struggling with their mental health that is often limiting their ability to be independent.
Speaker 1:Jack is a licensed clinical psychologist, passionate clinician and leader in helping young adults cross that bridge into healthy and engaging independence. His unique blend of clinical and administrative experience has provided Jack a comprehensive perspective on the therapeutic journey. He believes through the power of connection we thrive. Jack's clinical foundations are driven in attachment theory and dialectical behavioral therapy, otherwise known as DBT. Jack has also served on the board of directors for the National Association of Therapeutic Programs and Schools, as well as having a private practice working primarily with young students from the local community. Jack loves living in the outdoor rich area of Cedar City with his wife of 23 years and their two teenage children. Jack is an avid mountain biker and a coach for his son's high school mountain bike team. Jack, you know, for everybody out there that might be maybe not quite as engaged as you and I might be around this topic. First thing and we'll go somewhere with this, but first thing let's define attachment.
Speaker 2:Attachment was traditionally seen as like early development, younger children or people that, hey, maybe were adopted and had really early relational trauma. That was kind of where the the box that we're kind of operating from and but now we're kind of moving from, like, like we're moving from that and seeing it as a lot more than that's the case. And so attachment is that your early formative years, um, and how that development, those experiences shape and form your, like, your neurodevelopment, the way it shapes your attachment, your attachment system. And so all of us have attachment styles and our early development affects that, our attachment styles. And there's, there's, um, there's typically four attachment styles. So the one that we all want to want to show up more and the one that we want to be more in the place of is secure attachment, stable, consistent, predictable homes, stable attachment figures.
Speaker 2:And then you have what we call insecure attachment but people label as preoccupied attachment. And so those people have they have, they have low avoidance in relationships but a high anxiety in relationships. And so a person who's got preoccupied attachment when they when they get, when they get stressed out or anxious about relationships, they lean into relationships. So when preoccupied, so think about you, they're preoccupied about relationships. So they're typically really concerned about relationships, concerned about those things. And then you have the other. You have avoidant, which is high avoidance and low anxiety. That's on the pole, the polar on high avoidance and high anxiety when it comes relationships. So they're very, very detached from relationships. They get overwhelmed by intimacy in relationships and um and so when they get stressed out and stressed out in relationships, they lean back. And as we and we talk about these different attachment styles, there's some bit of like superpowers or some strengths within each attachment style that show can show up very well in work and we'll kind of we can talk a little bit about that down the road. And then you have disorganized type, which is a combination of you're preoccupied and avoidant, and so the stress they feel is that where they feel very fearful about abandonment in relationships. And so when they feel like one's going to fill up, they feel abandonment or feel like one's going to leave them, they lean into relationships. And then, when they start leaning into relationships, they get super anxious about being too dependent on the relationships. So they pull back In the world that you and I are in, typically clients that are in long-term care, who need like residential treatment who and maybe go to multiple settings, do the continuing care maybe in treatment for three to four years typically fall into disorganized category and um.
Speaker 2:And so over the years um, the clients I've worked with was we give them an attachment test and a high percentage fall into the disorganized category that are in treatment. And then I've also met with groups of clinicians and it's quite fascinating what are the typical attachment styles showing up with people who are in the working profession? But you see a lot of people who tend to want to work in the helping profession, who preoccupied attached people, because they really lean into relationships, they get a lot of their needs from relationships and those things and so it's interesting to kind of play that. And so I think the last time I looked into-.
Speaker 1:You have to worry about enmeshment in their work, I'm sure as well. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to take a little side note about therapy, but it's really fascinating to look at outcomes of therapy based on the attachment style of the therapist, and some of the research I've looked at is that sometimes the therapist's attachment style has a larger impact on the outcome than the client's attachment style, and so our attachment style is the foundation of how we show up and work.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's really important to know what is your operating system. It's our overall operating system, the same way that's on this computer that we're using today, right now on our phone, and it really operates. The whole phone, operates the whole computer, and now cars have operating systems, and so you can even maybe take it a step further.
Speaker 1:Your refrigerator has an operating system these days. Yeah, yeah, if it's not working right.
Speaker 2:Your eggs and your milk is going to spoil in that fridge pretty quickly. And, yeah, cars, and you can take it one step further is that it's even like it's. It's even like our relational operating system. So it's our operating system. It comes the way we regulate our emotions. It's our operating system, way that we conceptualize ourself and the way we see others. It's also the operating system in the way we the kind of stress we feel in relationships, and then how do we respond to that stress?
Speaker 2:So you think about work. It creates emotion, there's relationships, and so you talked about uncertainty. And if you, when you think about attachment and people who have attachment distress and struggle with have attachment security, uncertainty is can be one of the number one triggers for them. And so then you talk about the world that you and I work in. Is that we're doing? We're we're supporting people that are very uncertain. And and you, if you talk to like a testing psychologist or anybody like I, think the thing is that the thing that, like we, we think we're good at predicting behavior, but we're actually the worst at predicting behavior because our clients are very uncertain, and the thing about attachment, it's a great window into understanding yourself and it gives you the insight in how you show up and work in relationships so in a quad style assessment, you know, you see this amorphous blob that you got a little, you know a little bit of territory in the disorganized, a little territory in the preoccupied, a little territory stable.
Speaker 1:Ideally you want to have a lot in the stable um and and so that profile gives you your profile. You've got a little bit of all of them, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you show and then like, yeah, if you want to, if you want to learn more about your own personal attachment, there's a great organization and website called the attachment project. Yeah, that's cool, yeah, yeah, it's cool. And so it gives you that little quarter that you're talking about where like and can. Even even if you're um, your primary, uh, attachment figures are no longer with us anymore. Like your parent, like your mom and your dad, you can still get an idea of kind of how you fall into romantic relationships, your parents and those things. And just even taking that test actually is pretty, um, informative, just the way you just get the answer. His questions will bring up a lot of information about yourself and so, yeah, it's like we show up differently in different relationships and different situations can trigger that attachment and security in those things. Definitely. And you think about work. It's very relational. Especially the work we work in is extremely relational.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, and you know, I I think about looking through this lens, uh, and as it relates to identity, um, and you know, if you're talking about, as you say, many of the individuals that that end up in long-term treatment or care, those kinds of things have a have a disorganized profile, disorganized attachment profile. So what you're trying to do is is cause them to shift that a bit.
Speaker 1:You're moving the needle right, and and and through that re like. That's a whole new identity. It's a whole different way of of being in the world. Um, um, for a person who not only has this attachment style but also has probably forged an identity around some of the the challenges of their condition. You know they they're, you know they suffer from depression or anxiety. They got this profile of a sick person in their mind and they've identified with it. Um and like, what is the? In chemistry? There's this, uh, it's one of my favorite ones.
Speaker 1:I use it my notes all the time, but it means this yields something else and it's a it's a little arrow, um, and in some, in some formations, you've got you've got chemicals that yield each other, so one will, it'll yield that way and it'll yield the other way, and the sign is a is a half arrow on top and a half arrow on bottom.
Speaker 1:That's one of my favorite symbols, but I could see that symbol existing between attachment and identity, um, and that, like, if you're looking through this window, this lens of your attachment, style and and everything that comes up as a result of that, you start to go straight towards your identity.
Speaker 1:It's like, if you, if I, if I question the way that I attach to things, not just people like there's ways I orient all kinds of stuff in the world that are hints at this window, this lens that we're talking about, and as opposed to, if you start to change, that you walk into a place and suddenly you've adjusted your view through this lens and thusly your identity starts to change and, like, your environment starts to really revolve, the way that you interact with the world really draws the world in in a particular way, the way you focus on it, the who you relate to, etc. Etc. When you see this shift and the people and the young adults that you're working, working with, like, what are the first signs that you start to see in a person who's making this, who's moving this needles, look through this lens, done the work and is starting to make this shift? What is it? And maybe you see it in your clinicians too. I don't know, but like what is it that you see?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, this is a really fascinating conversation because, like one of my closest friends and colleague, him and I have a little bit of a debate about this all the time, about what's, how do you define true change? Can you change your attachment style, and we and we have this really dynamic conversation around it and and he can be like Eric Fawson with elements he would be another good like conversation. Let's call him. Let's get him in here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll get us on there.
Speaker 2:We'll debate it, go back and forth. I mean, we'll hash it on the mountain bike on the climbs at least We'll be happy because we can't talk, and we'll conceptualize our clients this way, conceptualize ourselves this way. And so no to me, when it comes to deep, deep work, true internal change, you're actually shifting the attachment system. That's what's happening. And so I say a system. We can also say the word identity, because your identity is kind of like your operating system Right, it's just another way to kind of think about it. And so so your attachment system, your attachment style, really impacts the way you regulate yourself, emotional regulation, and so having a lot of emotional dysregulation affects identity development. When your emotions are very chaotic, it's hard to kind of like to shape a consistent, stable identity, because the way you feel about something tells you about how you think about something, and then how you think about something affects your identity.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like well, it's going to tell you how to act about something, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:If you're all, if you're, if you're very disorganized and I love you one minute, I hate you one minute I'm into your country's. Next minute I'm into like punk. I mean. I mean it's okay to like be all over the place and there's a bit of like normal development for young people to be in this disarray. But hopefully over time, with with hopefully, they have starting to crystallize their identity as they're becoming more regulated.
Speaker 2:So also, too, how you see yourself, your self-esteem, your self-concept also directly relates to your identity. So if you're very dysregulated, you're very insecure. You're going to be insecure with yourself. So you're going to be unsure of yourself, which means you're going to be unsure of your identity. And so it's like the identity is like the top of the pyramid. But then you've got these foundation pieces that create that identity. And if it's really really rocky and not consistent, you're going to be all over the map. And then also your identity, the way you relate to people, also creates your identity. So if you've got chaotic relationships, because you think about it, how do you figure out who you are? We figure out who. The reflection of other people and the connection with other people, like what you see.
Speaker 2:Intimacy into me, what you see, exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly. I love that, and so some of my relationships are chaotic. It's going to be, it's going to, I don't know, I don't know what is upside or upside down with me, what I like, what kind of people I like, and so so that that foundation, just those building blocks, up to the peak of our identity yeah yeah, I'm, I'm really interested in this, this debate.
Speaker 1:You've got going on the mountain bikes. I'm surprised we haven't rid together yet.
Speaker 2:Um but um I know, I know you know and you ride any bikes like I will give you like maybe, maybe it's maybe my resistance riding with you. Are you an e-bike or your regular, like old school bike?
Speaker 1:I'm I I old schooled for, you know, 40 years. I'm old enough that I can. I can say, yes, I like to carry myself around on a bit of with a bit of assistance. So I just let people set the pace and I don't wear myself out by the end of the top.
Speaker 2:You can ride longer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know you get a lot longer ride out of it too. But this, this argument that you're having on the uphill, that's, that's something, and, um, I'll say this I don't know if I I don't know if I'm going to confirm or did, I don't know if I would confirm an argument one way or the other about this whole thing in in the, in this, in this one interview, you know, we only got we only got about 30 minutes or 40 minutes that we took to talk about. We're probably not going to resolve the issue today, but I can say that any time that I've, without maybe necessarily knowing it. But look through this lens of attachment, um, and there's a couple of exercises that I did for a while that were that they come up for me as I think about this, and it's in practicing them or looking through this lens, I I was disorienting. You know, it was like I was making some shift about the way that I oriented myself, not just to people, but to everything in my world, including the assumptions and statements and beliefs I had about myself.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm this kind of person, right? It's like, is that so? Are you that person? That? Is that really the truest expression of who you are, or is there more to it? Or are you maintaining something that you're clinging to? Where did it come from in the first place?
Speaker 1:And you're asking kind of these, these deep level questions, and if you start to, if you start to like, pull that card that makes the deck fall, it's disorienting. You're like, holy crap, my whole world has to now like reorient in some way. Um, and I, I don't even know where I stand right now. I'm just gonna have to stand still for a minute and let it all fall, let it all fall back into place and see what comes up.
Speaker 1:Like you know I, you know, is it is, is change of your, your attachment style, possible? I, I don't know. Um, I I want to say yes, but, and at the same time and I know that shift like shifts in it, are possible but you can shift the dial on something that doesn't make the dial different, that doesn't make the mechanism that you're, that you're, you know adjusting different. You know you still, I still fit within the context of the body that I walk around in right, and the face that I that comes out to the world and the people that I relate to. So those I mean one. Any shift that you make, whether we can answer that question or not, is very challenging, because if you're talking about a chaotic person, they're used to like this kind of environment and then they shift. It's like we're used to like this kind of environment and then they shift.
Speaker 2:It's like we're gonna, we're gonna stabilize this. So I, you know, as you say, there's a version of us that lives in each one of the styles. Yeah, um, yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I, I think where, where? Um, eric fossi land is that? I think we we kind of go back and forth on this a little bit, I think to really just completely change your attached to style.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's going to happen during your whole development and your whole life and but I think the a, how much you're in that quadrant of of of preoccupied or disorganized, can shift. You can't get a little bit more closer to the middle of being secure and and then maybe, maybe with like and then maybe with? For example, if you're in a relationship with secure people, you may be more likely to show up more secure with secure people. If you're in a relationship with a preoccupied person, you might show up more preoccupied, so you're more likely to show up secure, preoccupied, so you might be more so if you, you're more likely to show up or avoid it if that's the counterbalance right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah and and so so back to your question too is like, how does that process look like? Where I think the thing is that you, I think just like first being aware of your, of your patterns, your style, and and so I think that's the work, because I think the thing is that when you're, when you're, when you're preoccupied, disorganized or avoidant, you really don't know what secure looks like. You really don't like you might have an idea, but you're just, you're operating the way you, when you show up preoccupied or disorganized or avoidant, that's just like, that's just normal to you and that's how normal related related to function. So the key is understanding, like your style, and then the big part of the process, too, is understanding what is the how does secure show up in relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah and yeah, and I always use the um, the text, the uh texting uh example for this a lot where. So when you text somebody like, say, you text like your spouse or a girlfriend or boyfriend or a close friend and you don't hear from them for hours a preoccupied, preoccupied person they can put them in a spiral like, oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? Did I piss them off? Or you can go down the jealousy road.
Speaker 1:Oh, they must be cheating on me, They'll come out right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they go down that road really quickly and that person on the other end could just be busy at work, or their phone could have died, or they're just busy. You're not the most important thing to them right now, and so so they're. And so the thing is like they're in their, their anxiety about that response turns them into the tailspin, and they can, like they. What they'll do is they'll start me blowing up the other person's phone or what's going on and start accusing them of things as well too, and so. So the key is is talking okay, so when you send a text, you feel that anxiety. What? What would a secure person do?
Speaker 2:So the key key is like so you start like identifying the feelings around the. You identify the feelings of preoccupied or avoided or disorganized, and you help them regulate that. So you're teaching regulation skills. As they're feeling that style, then you're also teaching them about how to respond securely. So the things that happen, the way to kind of shift attachment is emotional. Regulation is actually showing up securely and actually being in relationships with secure people. So that's the recipe to help you move more in that middle quadrant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and you're. I mean, it kind of reminds me of epigenetics. It's kind of like you know, you've got tons of genetic code but you've got a picker that says you know this color eyes and this color hair and this color skin and everything else In this model, like you know, if we're looking at it, and models only do a certain kind of job, but like there's, if we're looking at it, and and models only do certain kind of job, but like there's a version of you that is that is stable, and there's a version of you that is preoccupied, and there's a version of you that's avoidant and there's a. You know, like you've, you've got a version of you that it can exist at at any end of this maybe it's not a spectrum, or you know, in at any any for any corner of the quadrants, right, um and in order, if you've all, if all you've ever experienced is, say, preoccupied, or all you've ever experienced is is chaotic, then you, in order to be able to embrace anything that looks like the other styles, you've got to know what it looks like. So you know you're giving them and you know what we know is is a is a stable.
Speaker 1:Attachment style causes a person to be able to do a lot more things. They can hold jobs and they can have stable relationships and they can manage a budget and do all kinds of things because they're not in this chaotic relational matrix with the things in their life and that's not just people, but their money and their car and their everything else Like it really shows up in all these places. And if they have a, if they have a version that they can like, okay, this is what I love this, this question. It's like what does that look like? You know well, a stable would look like this and and I would behave this way and I would show up to work this way and I would drive this way, you know.
Speaker 1:And they start creating this version of themselves that lives in a stable, attachment style, and the identity on the other side of that is going to look different. They're going to be the same person, but their identity is going to look different to the rest of the world and the people who show up in their lives are going to shift. I mean, it's very exciting work to do, I think, honestly, for yourself and to help other people with, but it's also and I tell people all the time if, in looking at this kind of work, what you come up with as a feeling is not terrified, you probably aren't paying attention. I think that terrified is an appropriate response to doing this kind of work yeah, because it's.
Speaker 1:It's not for the faint of heart. It's very difficult and you know the people that you're working with are very brave to go do it and the way, and what terrifies you about that work is your attachment style. That's, that's right which is so true I'll get it and so the way.
Speaker 2:so, for example, like, because what we're talking about is really deep, deep work, deep connection, deep emotional work, and and alan shore, who is a um, as a, like a researcher from, uh, I think, university, california, I mean there's tons of research on this stuff and he talks about the right brain. Connecting with the right brain is what's really deep therapy. That's deep therapy, right, that's deep connection. And so so you talk about a person who's avoidant and you're like saying like you're, like you're not connected with your clients on a deep level. That could be, that could be terrifying for an avoidant person.
Speaker 2:Um, and then, but then with a preoccupied person preoccupied person it can be flooding, they can get flooded by it, they can get like they can get so wrapped up into the other person to have poor boundaries, and then they then they get dysregulated by the other person's emotions and then that's frightening. And so that so secure, so secure clinician, secure therapist can connect deeply but don't lose a sense of self, they don't get flooded by the other person's emotions in session, they don't lose sight of like, like they don't, they don't start coming securely attached. Therapists also provide the most authentic real empathy because it's really really providing connection on the level of that person and not too much reflecting yourself into the process that a preoccupied person would, and so yeah, it's, it's, it's yeah it's interesting how the fear of this really hard work and how you experience it is directly related to your attachment yeah, well, um, you know, I I have your, I have uh engaged transition sticker on my laptop.
Speaker 1:You should know oh cool you know, connection is the connection, is the intervention and the solution. You know the outcome, yeah, the outcome, yeah, and it's like, like, like your attachment, your attachment style is the key and the door.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean and and and, when we're in this space, is that, like I didn't. I didn't choose my parents, I didn't choose how. I came into this world Right, and some of us have maybe were lucky, got in. This happened. We just grabbed the, we got lucky and got into a secure home environment. We were maybe in a secure, like social, like social, economic setting. I wasn't during wartime or I was.
Speaker 2:I happened to be lucky to be born in a in a stable economic country, and I mean all those pieces, I mean all these things shape attachment. They really do, yeah, and so, um, and so I didn't choose my attachment and it's and so I really try to frame it as like this is not a pathological label, this is not like um, and it's more about like, okay, this is, this is like your system that you were kind of born with and so understanding your system and and how to respond to it, and so, yeah, so I think the thing is it's like I really try to frame it that way, so, so people don't feel like, oh, I'm, I'm, oh, I'm disorganized, I'm hopeless and right, yeah and um, it's hard work and it's long work and you're going to be working your whole life, you're going to be working whole life to man to, to, to manage where disorganized attachment has less disruption on your life.
Speaker 1:It's something you're going to be doing your whole life well, and I think that you're also talking about a person if they've, if they've lived, let's say, chaotic for a lot of their lives and they begin to acquire skills, that that that move them more towards stable. But they have both ends of this spectrum to draw from. They've lived both ways. You know, if I, if I'm a person and I've got a, you know I came out. If I came out stable, let's say that I am, let's say that I am. If I came out stable, I'm not saying that I am. Let's say that I am. If I came out stable, I don't know what. I'm not trying to go towards chaotic. I'm probably not trying to go towards either of the others.
Speaker 1:Even though I have aspects of it that are available to me, it's not something I'm going to gravitate towards. This person who's been in a chaotic place but is trying to move towards stable Chaotic always exists. It's always there. They don't necessarily always behave that way because they're learning how to do something different, but it's always there and part of their repertoire, which means for the rest of your life. You have to actively choose which of these styles I'm going to express, and that I mean.
Speaker 1:I think especially in the beginning, it can be very exhausting, you know what I mean Like it's just emotionally exhausting, where you're always choosing and I mean I remember doing early exercises and like just thought management, like inner dialogue management and word management. It's like what am I saying to myself and how am I saying it to myself and why am I saying it that way? And are there, are there negatives? Am I deprecating myself? Am I? You know where all these sources of these words come from and what do they mean to me? And what you know? It was a. It was a practice that I started and at first, like I had to really just do it because I hated it and then I could not do it and then it was just part of the background, it was just part of what Routine, part of the routine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, think about what was happening to your brain, how you were rewiring your brain. Yeah, literally, you were rewiring your brain and yeah, literally, you were rewriting your brain. And I kind of almost think about like trying to learn how to play an instrument for the first time, how, how emotionally taxing that is. Like try to like focus on where your fingers are on the on the guitar, on the on the keys and and the beat, and it's like it's exhausting. You're yeah, you're building those deep, deep emotional tracks and it is really exhausting and it's something, it's a labor that it is your whole life and it does get easier. It's like it does get easier and so hopefully, you'll show up more frequently in the secure category, less frequently the the other categories, and so making those choices is a lot easier in the first place, right, yeah, yeah and and so and it's also another part a big part of that, too, is being like the way your brain can heal or shift.
Speaker 2:We're talking about healer. Shifting is being in, um, being in stable relationships. That's probably going to be the most way to shift your brain. The quickest, too, is being in stable, consistent relationships with people.
Speaker 1:Anchors, yeah well, man, I I think we're just gonna. I'm gonna reach out to alan shore, I'm gonna get you, we'll get a couple other guys in here. We're just going to. I'm going to reach out to Alan Shore, I'm going to get you, we'll get a couple other guys in here. We're going to have a big group up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it'd be fun to get Eric in here.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, eric Foss and I with Elements, and yeah, we, we we talk attachment, all the time, yeah, and we talk, we see it through our, through ourselves and our relationships, our clients, and so another thing, too, I'm real excited about is that I stumbled upon a podcast with Alan Shore and Uberman. You know the Uberman Lab. Yeah, love that guy. He's a neurologist and so he interviews Alan Shore and they get into a lot of conversation, which is really awesome, and uberman and him talk about what is good therapy and like what does the good therapy look like? And I I haven't heard anybody explain or discuss it in such a clear way that I've been like texting this podcast, a lot of different people and and and like our, our clinicians here are listening to it we're talking about it Share it with me when you get a chance.
Speaker 2:That'd be great. Yeah, I totally will. Yeah, I will, I will. So it's like as soon as we disconnect from here, I'll share with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, jack. Dr Jack Hinman, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been Mental Health Matters on WPBM 1037, the voice of Ashland Todd Weatherly, your host, and look forward to seeing you next time. Take care.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Todd.
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